I have really had it with UBBT. How is it that they have left out all of the sizzle: they don't even display the post icons, get a hack for that, the Graemlins, forget it, the self-lighting bulbs, the burning folders...?? In watching the UBB evolve, didn't they see these things as adaptations that were embraced? Why would so many people use them on their UBB, unless they found them an effective way of explaining the vast amounts of information a table of forums offers? Where is the PopIt feature? Where are the ratings? What do I GET for my extra $30 dollars, except to be shuttled back in time 5 years in terms of user interface? MySQL... well, I thought it was great, but not at this cost. Rick Baker: why have you left out SO MUCH of what makes UBB a great experience when you made UBBT??
I have trialled both UBB and UBBT. I see most of the advantages with UBBT being on the admin side. But I must agree, UBB has a simpler, more user-friendly interface. It is no good having great admin features when its dinner for one.
My testers were very enthusiastic about UBB, but as soon as I put UBBT, that all but dried up. Many of my visitors will be people with little forum experience, and the UBB interface is far more appealing and welcoming to Newbie 1.0. The animated, instant graemlin menu is a big plus. They are colourful and funny,especially for these people who are used to sending messages with Outlook Express.
I am buying the licence tomorrow, and I don't know which one to go for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face="">Originally posted by mdmz: Rick Baker: why have you left out SO MUCH of what makes UBB a great experience when you made UBBT??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">Rick Baker wrote UBBT long before being acquired by InfoPop. It's gonna take a while (if it's even their strategy) to make UBBT look and act like UBB....
Im a native wwwthreads user and I can tell you that from a performance perspective, php and mysql cant be beat. Just the private msg system alone makes ubbt a slam dunk. File attatchments, ubbcode or html in posts. Those greamlins, they are supposed to make ubbt better. I dont see it. Stick with ubb if you dont like ubbt. I personally wont be switching to that board anytime soon.
Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt UBBT is the better program, and I will go for UBBT. But I have to consider the user-friendlyness as many of my expected members will be new to real-time forums. Imagine yourself as Newbie 1.0, entering a forum site for the first time. The UBB interface "guides" them quite easily through the subject hierachy, and then warms them when they see some of these animated features. They think " wow! How can I use these!" And it is easy for them. On the other hand, UBBT, in its current state, has an interface that that is packed with features, but the basic once lack the obvious emphasis. And if a newbie starts entering in the text field, how does he or she place a graemlin/smilie without knowing the code or looking for reference? The good thing about UBB is it has menus, and a big button saying Post now. And it doesn' scare newbies away. I will go for UBBT, because I am sure these features will arrive one day.
"It takes two to lie.. One to lie, one to listen." -The great Homer J. Simpson
OK, how can I tell I a topic is HOT? Well, how better than via a BURNING folder!! It's so succinct and clear. UBBT, with which I am saddled, defenders, how is it that the developers could walk AWAY from the burning folder? What were they, if listening, are you, thinking? "Oh, well, that too CLEARLY illustrates and expalins what is otherwise just a swarm of cells...Naaahh, leave it out."? What is the possible improvement of UBBT without the burning folders? Let me put it another way, if, tomorrow, UBB disabled the burning folders on all UBB licenses, what would be the reaction?
THAT'S what I am talking about.
The anemic user interface of UBBT illustrates the WORST kind of techno-centric thought. "Dude, the private messages went THROUGH the MySQL system!!" Look, I have e-mail How much more PRIVATE can I get? My MOST PRESSING ISSUE is KEEPING visitors!!! If users can't EVEN navigate past the first cell, what's the POINT?
My question, still unanswered, remains, Rick Baker: why have you left out SO MUCH of what makes UBB a great user experience when you made UBBT??
More to the point, more to the point: now that I & soon to be cityeast own the product and have brought these dramatic issues to light, note the rating on this post, how long before we WILL WE HAVE TO WAIT to get the kind of user interface that you have ALREADY expertly developed?! Yours & Infofpop's sustained indifference is troubling and astonishing.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face="">Originally posted by mdmz: My question, still unanswered, remains, Rick Baker: why have you left out SO MUCH of what makes UBB a great user experience when you made UBBT?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">Here, I'll answer that one for you. This answer is *extremely simple*.
Rick Baker didn't make UBBThreads, he made WWWThreads.
Infopop bought it a few months ago and rebranded it UBBThreads, as well as hiring Rick to continue working on it. Version 5.5 is the first *minor* version released (in major.minor.revision format) as UBBThreads. There hasn't even been a major release version under the UBBThreads name... and consequently it looks and acts nothing like UBB, since it was built from the ground up as a totally different system. I personally was using WWWThreads back around version 3 in 1998. I remember when the passwords becoming encrypted in the database was a Big Thing (tm).
"Rick Baker: why have you left out SO MUCH of what makes UBB a great user experience when you made UBBT"
Rick left nothing out. Rick simply has not added it yet. UBBThreads is a lot younger than UBB and has not the benefit of time and developement that UBB has had. Rick was also writing a perl and a php version at the same time and that slowed things down considerably. Now that he is doing only one version look for things to move a lot faster.
"Yours & Infofpop's sustained indifference is troubling and astonishing."
I don't know where you come up with sustained indifference. That in itself is troubling but if you view sustained indifference as not adding your favorite feature to a product we only just bought I think you are being a bit unfair in your appraisal.
Well, I have just submitted my purchase for UBBT, but it is because I believe that, from my perusal of the the support forum here, Rick and the team at Infopop have their "finger on the pulse" and take a passionate interest in developing their products. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face="">Posted by mdmz: Yours & Infofpop's sustained indifference is troubling and astonishing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">Not a fair comment.As much as I agree with mdmz about graemlins and folder icons,I must disagree with this statement. I think it is misleading and counterproductive. Just read the forums, their is a mountain of evidence to show that Rick and the teams concern for their product is best described as "dedicated".
I trust that our concerns will be promptly addressed and I put my faith (and money) in the hands of the UBBT team that they will deliver.
Keep up the good work. :-)
"It takes two to lie.. One to lie, one to listen." -The great Homer J. Simpson
Let me start out by saying Rick Baker is off the hook. Infopop, you now can respond. You have mis-characterized my point. I am not asking for a feature, I am asking for a standard. Paying top dollar and getting less than current market standards makes me feel like you don't care about me, at all. Here, take this Ferrari, but we've still got the crank starter. Since when is an up-to-date standard a feature?
My point is it IS simple indifference. How do I know? Because through hours of coursing through the net, I have been able to force the most basic standards of user-frendliness common to the entire genre on to this product through hacks. If I can do it, with my skill, which is zero, how much more quickly could YOU have done it? Instead, your team there CHOSE TO IGNORE IT. That IS indifference, it's very definition.
And let me tell you why it's so troubling: because having already created a great interface for UBB, but having chosen to indifferently leave it out, when you finally get around to raising the standard of the interface, how will I ever be able to figure out how I can untangle the hacks I put in? Well, it will take me hours to do that- hours. And that's troubling to me, because it means my time is worthless to you. You're a busy guy, right? Let me lock you up in a room away from your customers, friends and children for a few hours each day because you have to un-fix an out-of-date new product that already took you hours to fix. How would that make you feel? That's troubling because, to you, I don't count. Unlike others, I do not buy software to join a community. I have a community: it's called my life. I bought state-of-the-art software and got an interface that was less than state-of-the-art.
Not only do you not care about my time, you don't care if I succeed. You have given me a tool wrapped in an outdated wrapper. That faded wrapper means that people AREN'T going to pick up my product. They'll move down the aisle. Doesn't that trouble you? That's YOUR product they're passing by. It SURE troubles me.
"We didn't leave anything out, we just havn't added it yet." If my accountant or lawyer made this kind of a statement to me I would go through the roof. You are a professional! If you had integrity, you would simply say, "We are wrong." Is that possible here? Is it possible that, if some kid in Cimbalex, Florida can make an up-to-date interface hack, and EVERYONE snaps it up and hounds each other around the world for the code...is it possible that you should have included it in the first place? Have you looked at the little brown folder that changes when there is a post to a barely-recognizable open little brown folder? Have you taken the time to notice that on EVERY COPY of threads, the Posts column is too narrow? So when you have a new post it says
(1 new)
posts, and breaks the line? Have you looked at the interface of UBB, Open Topic? Let me ask you this: CAN you be wrong? Shouldn't you have issued the software with an up-to-date interface? And, if you can be wrong, if it's possible for you to admit to that, can you take the next step?
Look, you expect me to spend my weekends hacking away at the product. Shouldn't you do the same if it isn't up to spec? How long would it take your team to put in the burning folders, the graemlins, to put a 2/05/2002 interface on your product? You know the answer to that question. The only issue is, are you the kind of men and women who are big enough to admit mistakes and stop making excuses.
Again, I don't see the where we made the mistake of leaving something out of a product that we just bought. Please don't accuse me of indifference for not adding a feature retroactively. If I could that I would but unfortunately I cannot. All I can do, and will do, is make sure that as we progress into the future these things and more are added.
Neither Rick not I can change what you percieve as done or not done in the past. We can change what is done or not done in the future.
Didn't you just release 5.5? It seems clear to me that you are unable to admit having made any mistakes. I am unsure about what you spent the bulk of your time working on in the release of 5.5, but, obviously, it wasn't on the interface, which you insist on calling a feature. You say if you could put an up-to-date-interface on the product retroactively, you would. Well, you could have done it before you released 5.5, but you DIDN'T. Unfortunately, you are simply unable to say that. It's was out of your control.
Take responsibility! I not asking you to asking you to focus on the past nor on the future, but to take take responsibility for your product RIGHT NOW, much like you are willing to take the money you charge for it. Can't you do that? Can't you say, we recognize the interface is sub-standard, and we will focus, right now, on fixing it? Wouldn't that be better than saying, as before, ...it was out of our contol...we just bought the product {before we sold it to you}...we can't be wrong...wait for the future? Why won't you commit your resources to focusing on this NOW? Don't your customers deserve that?
Ok, I'll step in and comment now. A few things to take into consideration. First, you had asked what did we spend our time on for the 5.5 release. So, I'll direct you to this thread.
Secondly, as for the interface being substandard. This might be true from your perspective, however there are 2 sides for everything. When I owned WWWThreads my customers felt the same thing about other forum software, that their interface was sub-standard. I focused on developing what they asked for and honestly the instant graemlins and hot topic folders just weren't asked for.
Which brings us to the present and we still try to focus on what the customers want. So we will be adding things that are asked for and improving on areas that are discussed. Some things take time. For instance, the hot topic folder seems like a simple addition and its really easy when you are viewing in standard collapsed mode, but when you are viewing in expanded mode it throws things out of whack because the hot topics folders are only displayed for the main topic, not all the replies. So, it could be added fairly easily but would like quite bad under certain settings.
So, we are progressing and listening. 5.5 had alot of things that people have been asking for. We're working on 6.0, templates, etc and it too will have things that people are asking for.
------------------- Rick Baker UBBThreads developer
The gang here at Infopop listens to everyone's input, be it criticism/ praise/ or requests. I've been lucky enough to be a part of both UBB and UBBThread's beta testing teams and I have a tremendous amount of respect for what goes into getting a new version out the door. The kid who writes code in Florida isn't responsible for said code corrupting your database in kalamazoo... Rick, Charles and Dave put many many hours into making sure their product is the best it can be. Give them some time... GUI maturation/ refinement takes time and UBB/Open Topic have had more time to mature.
Keep an eye on the v6 Changelog for what's coming in the near future <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Eeets lookeeng good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Rick, David, Allen, and anyone else at Infopop for what its worth. Im a programmer and I know what its like trying to please everyone all the time. You cant. But I will tell you this those who do not apprreciate the job that this team has done in transitioning UBBT to Infopop just do not get it. I give Infopop and Rick a HUGE pat on the back. They have been AWESOME. I have to admit my first feelings were negative being a wwwthreads user and seeing my favorite forum being bought. But mdmz ultimately you made the choice to buy it and you had the choice to pick from hundreds of different forums. My god in these times of stress and uncertainty have a heart and understand what these folks go through on a daily basis. They have been absolutely fabulous in supporting this thing and Rick has been pushing out version changes non-stop. DO NO T make it look like UBB Please. If this board here is UBB I sure as heck dont want mine looking like this. Mdmz, we all have our preferences and shouldnt be forced to accept yours regardless of your inability to appreciate ubbt. You dont buy something unless you check it out first? Thats like me buying a volvo without test driving it or even looking at it. Cmon.
I have to agree with hougs. Everybody has his own preferences and is used to his favorite programs. I for instance do not need a light bulp or a folder, I prefer the "(x new)". On the other site I do not like for instance that most of the boards (including for instance the UBB of ubbdesign.com) do not use image hights and widths. So the page layout constantly changes till all images are loaded. In WWWThreads that was fixed mostly.
I do not think that UBBThreads is that difficult to use in comparison to other forum packages. On the other side I have to admit that there are some things where UBBThreads lacks behind other software. (mainly: forms, especially post form; Avater upload; error messages) But I'm sure this was only because Rick had not enough time to work on this.
When I heard that WWWThreads was bought by Infopop I already thought of switching to phpBB2. I did some testing and found out that UBBThreads builds it's pages up to 4 times faster then phpBB2 it's similar pages. On the same server and although the UBBThread board is running with 17.000 posts, and the test installation of phpBB2 only had one post!
Now when I look at the 6.0 changelog then I'm really looking forward to this new version. And Rick wrote that he has improved the queries, so I hope that the new version with the template system and additional features will still be one of the fastest boards out there.
<First, you had asked what did we spend our time on for the 5.5 release. So, I'll direct you to this thread.>
What I said was, I didn't know what you spent the time on, but I knew it wasn't on the interface. It was really a rhetorical question, although in your response, you have in fact proven my point.
<Secondly, as for the interface being substandard. This might be true from your perspective, however there are 2 sides for everything.>
Well, not so in this case. Really? How? You have
(1 new)
proves my point. Every single copy of UBBT shares this deligthful quirk, which noox RELIES on to let his users know about new posts. It splits the line. Right there ON THE MAIN PAGE. This illustrates completely my point about indifference and the seeming cult-like devotion purchasing threads engenders in most users. If you let you brother paint you house and he put a big grey line in the middle of the front, well, you'd forgive hime. After all, he's your brother. I am not inclined to forgive having the new posts info be absurdly split for every forum. UBB isn't my family, although they seem to hope I can be as forgiving to them. But, I am paying for this experience. What about the folder? HAVE you looked at that little brown folder? It's vitrually unrecognizeable AS a folder, open or closed. Why can't I see the message icons laid out? Why can't I EASILY upload more? These and the other interface advancements I have pointed out came years ago, and define the standard of interface options common to your other products, and the industry as a whole.
Throughout my description of the less-than-standard interface, I have chosen to focus on it as being the result of a choice. I asked if developing advanced or arcane execution refinements at the expense of the interface could be called a mistake, and if so, could UBBT admit to it and make a commitment to addressing it. At no time have they been willing to say that. To admit that it was a possibility, and respond with a "We will fix that. Now. This weekend."
<Mdmz, we all have our preferences and shouldnt be forced to accept yours regardless of your inability to appreciate ubbt.>
I refer you to my previous comments about the year in which of the kind of interface I seek evolved. Also, to my comments about the line being split on the new posts message. Do you appreciate that? Should I? Isn't what I am seeking really only an interface which functions at a level commensurate with or better than the quality of the messaging technology.
What I would appreciate is a review of the position taken by UBBT. In light of the popularity of this issue here, and the megabytes of characters spilled across the user groups in terms of interface, a reasonable person would expect that it would become a TOP priority. Instead, I have found only defensiveness, evasion and a rush to defend the indefensible.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face="">Originally posted by mdmz: Every single copy of UBBT shares this deligthful quirk...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">Not exactly. It really depends on what resolution you have your monitor set to and what the width of your table is set to in your theme.inc.php file. For example, my monitor is set to 1024x768 and I have my table width set to 95% (although it's housed in a 95% table which effectively makes it 90.25%). Anything less than (99 New) displays on a single line. (100 New) or more will force it to have a line break. Your assertion that allUBBThreads forums share this problem is both a fallacy and a gross exaggeration of the facts.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face="">Originally posted by mdmz: What about the folder? HAVE you looked at that little brown folder? It's vitrually unrecognizeable AS a folder, open or closed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">Okay, so my question to you is why don't you upload a different graphic if you're so against the folder? It's not exactly a complicated procedure. You're familiar with FTP, right? I'll even give you a hint about the file names and locations (although simply right-clicking on the folder in question would provide you with the identical information). You can find the two graphics in question in your /images folder as newposts.gif and nonewposts.gif. I'll even do you one better, I changed those graphics some time ago to use a lit light bulb and an un-lit light bulb. You can view (and download) the two graphics by clicking here for the nonewposts.gif and here for the newposts.gif. Both images are transparent and will work on any background. For an idea of what they look like, click here.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face="">Originally posted by mdmz: Why can't I see the message icons laid out? Why can't I EASILY upload more? These and the other interface advancements I have pointed out came years ago, and define the standard of interface options common to your other products, and the industry as a whole.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">Perhaps they are features common to some other message board software packages, but quite frankly, I don't want UBBThreads looking like UBB. If I wanted UBBI WOULD HAVE BOUGHT UBB. Certainly both were available at the time I made my purchase (December, 2001). I'm assuming that since you are an owner of the UBBThreads software, both were available at the time of your purchase. Which, quite frankly, really begs the question of why you purchased UBBThreads in the first place (a question you have refused to answer). I find it highly hypocritical of you to purchase a product, knowing full well its various features and interface and then whine and complain about how it isn't the same as "every other product" out there. To me this sounds like the consumer who exercised poor judgement and asked his brother to paint his house and then complained about the result. Perhaps he should have investigated further the quality and features of his brother's work before paying him to paint his house.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face="">Originally posted by mdmz: Isn't what I am seeking really only an interface which functions at a level commensurate with or better than the quality of the messaging technology.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">Then, perhaps you should have purchased one of those "other" software packages rather than purchasing UBBThreads and then whining about how it isn't what you want.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face="">Originally posted by mdmz: What I would appreciate is a review of the position taken by UBBT. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">What I want is for you to accept the consequences of your decisions and quit whining about them here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
What defines a 'hot' topic? The number of replies or the number of views? Either way you can sort the topics in either direction (ascending/descending) so you can have your posts sorted in whatever 'hotiness' direction you wish. Does UBB have any topic sorting capabilities?
Anyway, the trend of UBBisation of WWWThreads worries me, as the UBB interface was something I was not happy with (that's the reason I've looked up w3t from the 2.6 days). The burning folder is just another example of a 'feature' that duplicates existing information and bloats the product. There are some aspects of the W3T user interface that I don't agree with but that usually involves design incoherences regarding fonts/tables/icon placement.
I'll stop here because anything further will get personal ;
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face="">Every single copy of UBBT shares this deligthful quirk, which noox RELIES on to let his users know about new posts. It splits the line. Right there ON THE MAIN PAGE.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">I first thought that I have fixed the splitted line with a <nobr>(1 new)</nobr>. But I realized I did not, because it does not occur on my board. "(10 new)" only splits if the screenwith is less than about 900px.
I have a green background and the "(1 new)" is in red. This fit's well in my opinion and it is very noticable. I think that this is at least as noticable as the lightbulb, but it holds a lot more information! I know at first sight how much new posts where made. So I do not need (and want) a folder icon or a lightbulb. I does not provide any additional information, so for me it's pretty useless. Except that it is easier understood by users of other forums which only use this form to indicate new posts. But I assume a "(1 new)" is more self-explanatory than a lighting light bulb.
But I really understand that one would have some features that others do not worry about. Like when I want to have width and hight attributes in all the images and others don't want them, because they want to use various images with different sizes.
<For example, my monitor is set to 1024x768 and I have my table width set to 95% (although it's housed in a 95% table which effectively...>
I am trying to encourage a commitment to interface because I need it's scalability. Unlike you, I am not a hobbyist. From the moment someone arrives at my site I have only a few minutes to gain teir allegiance. I don't have the luxury of explaining to them how to re-configure their monitors. As I'm sure you know, only 50% of people are comfortable even with upgrading their browsers. How can we expect them to be willing to reconfigure their resolutions. I am seeking a mass market. To be quite frank: 200 registered users after 3 years? We seem to have different goals. And, UBBT doesn't at all market itself as Boutique Ware. Ultimately, for anyone who is unwilling or unable to have each visitor test and change their monitor res., the program ships user-combative, versus friendly.
<why don't you upload a different graphic if you're so against the folder? It's not exactly a...> Not complicated at all, and I easliy did that, long ago. My point is, that, if both of US are smart enough to do that, how is it that the software design team overlooked it? I am seeking to balance the outlook. Scalability shouldn't sacrifice design. But most importantly, you seem to have a lot more time to spend hand tooling your site. I don't have that kind of luxury, and I am quite unhappy with having to spend the little time I do have improvising design that could easily have come shipped with the product. I pointed out that the kind of interface I would want is common to both of their OWN other products. Doesn't that surprise you? If they had spent any time at all on raising the standard, imagine the time you could have saved? That's what I'm asking them to do.
And, as to UBBisation, I think there is a kind of myopia that takes over when we get involved with software design. But, sniffing, "Hmf! Anyone can SEE that they could sort the topics for views! Dunderheads!" makes the assumption that people will be willing to take the time to interpret the entirety of the table that's being presented to them. You know how fast people browse, right? Sure, the designers know right where to look. But, I need it to work for everybody. An example: when teaching some people get it verbally, some visually. No matter how clear you discousre on Plato's theory of forms, for some people, they just won't get it unless you use the blackboard. Do teachers just say, "Well, forget the guys that can't get what I'm saying."? If the teacher sketches it out on the board, are you gonna say, "Feature Bloat!"? It's the same with visitors. For some, that burning folder is all they need. I am not willing to sacrifice those visitors. Are you? What can be the attraction of excluding such a clear feature if it MAKES PEOPLE WANT TO STAY?
That same myopia seems to be gripping the UBBT group right now. Instead of shooting the messenger, why not take a few hours to identify the key features that are missing from the interface. Sit some UBB folks down and listen to what they say. UBB isn't number one for nothin'. But, take responsibility. Do something. Take a stand. Right now would be a good time to make the commitment to raising the standard of the interface. Just look at Wraith, whose stinging indictment of me still includes the fact that he has the light bulbs. What does that tell you? By choosing not to take a stand, you would only indicate that your customer's time and market penetration are secondary to the self-involved delight you seem to get from adding ever subtle refinements while openly disdaining the interface. You need to shake that off and realize that the program only succeeds if visitors are able to use it easily. I'll be watching the Changelog for v6.
[This message was edited by mdmz on 06 Feb 02 at 05:56 PM.]
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face="">the program ships user-combative, versus friendly.
... It's the same with visitors. For some, that burning folder is all they need. I am not willing to sacrifice those visitors. Are you? What can be the attraction of excluding such a clear feature if it MAKES PEOPLE WANT TO STAY? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">I would not say that UBBThreads is user-combative. I have to admit that I only have about 250 users in 7 months, but at least half of them have really not much computer experience. And overall they are able to use it without bigger problems. And they come again and again.
I think it would be rather improbable that one would ever ask for a hot topic icon or the removal of the line-break in "(1 new)". The main problems I noticed on my board are the missing avatar upload, a problem with the file upload with too big files (I assume already fixed in newer versions), that only half of the users are able to use markup, and some cryptic or too general error messages.
Everybody on my board wants to have an avatar, but nobody knows how to resize or crop an image. They constantly enter 400 x 300 images or links starting with C:/.... Avatar functionality like in phpbb2 would be great. Preferably with image size detection and various image sizes in a certain range should be allowed. An automatic image size reduction would be really a great plus (if appropriate libraries are installed on the server.)
And for the markup: Post forms like here or in vB or phpBB2 would be highly recommended.
I can see where you're coming from and I understand what you mean. We've been fortunate to have gained over 200 users in a little over month. Most of those have migrated from the previous board we built using ikonboard (which has some nice features that I miss). I decided to go with UBBThreads[/b] because of it's use of PHP and MySQL. I know there are other software packages out there, but to me and many other Internet "surfers", the use of a professional software package like [i]UBBThreads provides a sense of permanency and committment that can't be conveyed with programs like ikonboard.
The other side of the coin is programs like ikonboard are Perl-based CGI scripts and I'm much more comfortable customizing and hacking PHP than I am CGI.
I guess what it boils down to with me is the fact that I like the base product and with a few "tweaks" I've made it into a product that both myself and my "customers" are happy with. Sure it would be nice to have a lot of the features that I've "hacked" in provided with the base software package, but I'm pretty patient. I work in software development professionally, so I know what it takes to develop software. v6.0 will mark a fairly significant change in the product and will more than likely bring it more in line with the other UBB-like products available on the market.
My only complaint is the time it takes me to "upgrade" the software because I have to re-add all of my hacks in. I wish I could figure out an easier way to do that.
Anybody know of a software package that will compare two code files line-by-line and allow the two to be "merged"?
I believe that the UBB code hackers use a product called 'Beyond Compare' to upgrade when they have hacks installed. Might want to give it a try <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Very cool piece of software! Thanks for providing me with the information Kristi. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
This ought to make my life MUCH easier. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Let me reiterate: I am hoping that a equal commitment to interface and design will be undertaken by Infopop; one that matches or excels the infrastructure of UBBT. Anything less, again, betrays an indifference to cutomers, both toward the value of their time and to their hope, through UBBT, for success. Considering the kind of circumstance the person in the link below finds themselves, wouldn't you think there is a focus group of UBB users meeting right now at Infopop's HQ to ascertain which qualities of UBB are essential? If there isn't a focus group, and a fundamental re-alignment away from pursuing esoteric self-laudatory innovations {"Made a new option when logging in of having the login be temporary or permanent. (temporary means you will need to login the next time you visit, permanent it will remember you when you return)." Changelog 6}, then for the person outlined below, the only charge they can make is not one of indifference, but of negligence, almost with intent to harm.
Why are so many of the interface & design features of UBB ALSO in Open Topic? Why did Wraith change to lightbulbs? Why can't you have different banners for different forums? Why do I or the guy above have to spend all our FREE time hacking it in? Boutique Ware... "Ohhh, dude, you want INDIVIDUAL banners! Are you, like, a business or somethin'?!"?
I and I am sure the person above await the commitment. If you can't say you were wrong at least let us know that you will take the steps to get on the right track. If you read the hack lists for UBBT they largely describe... UBB!
<Made a new option when logging in of having the login be temporary or permanent. (temporary means you will need to login the next time you visit, permanent it will remember you when you return)> Has anyone asked for this? Is there any demonstrated need for it? How many hours did you spend on it? And the same can be asked of the following:
<Redesigned initial template system with...> <Changes to queries to allow titles/posts/signatures/etc to be dynamically displayed with a user's post. (Basically means these will change over time and will no longer be stored with the posts themselves.)> <All HTML in front-end scripts validated to be HTML 1.0 compliant>
While people may have even asked for these, how can they take priority over user-frendliness, that you have in both your other products, and the ability to... have different banners for each forum; that is, TO MAKE MONEY??? If this sounds harsh, it isn't; it is simply a direct question. Your efforts right now are misguided. Opinion? Not at all. Your MAIN interface has an error which, unless one is willing to ask users to, "Take a moment, and go to your Windows>Start Menu>Control Panel>Display Options..." ships on all 5.5. You have an error, on the main page, and you asked how many of your staff to verify that all HTML in front-end scripts are validated to be XHTML compliant?? What were you thinking? I depend on you to invest your time wisely. What is the possible advantage of the above improvements? Why do you include Graemlins in UBB & OT? Listen to the user-groups. Look at the hacks, spot the trends, do focus groups and stop spending time on what you THINK users want, or what you may even possibly be just vain-gloriously adding. Make the commitment to have UBBT's interface and design at the same Level as UBB & OT.
I definitely want these features from the 6.0 Changelog.
6.0 will be a major step in the UBBThreads development. I think, that it IS wise to first work on the basics (like XHTML compatibility, secure and better auth systems, template system, database optimizations and changes, ...) These are things that influence the whole system and surely a lot of pages.
What do you exactly mean with userfriendlyness? I can only see a few points where UBBThreads is not that user friendly as I want it. Mainly the post/reply form. Here I agree with you, that instant graemlins should be implemented. (Now I've found out what here is meant with "graemlins" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) But this is rather something at the surface of the system. I assume that this could even be implemented through the template system with pure HTML and Javascript. It would be not very clever to start with an advanced post/reply screen before the template system is completed.
Is there any forum software out there which has built in banner ads management? (I don't know UBB) I cannot remember that there where a lot of requests for such a features. This is usually something each webmaster has to do by his own.
There is a definite commitment to improve each and every aspect of UBBThreads just as there is with every other product you will find here. What I did try to stress in my last post is these things take time.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face=""><Made a new option when logging in of having the login be temporary or permanent. (temporary means you will need to login the next time you visit, permanent it will remember you when you return)> Has anyone asked for this? Is there any demonstrated need for it? How many hours did you spend on it? And the same can be asked of the following: </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">Yes, it's been asked for alot because many people share computers and they don't want to remain logged in when another person sits down at the computer. How many hours did we spend on it? About 10 minutes.
The template system was needed in order to improve the interface. Before HTML was spread all over the code so trying to make changes to the HTML portion, ie. interface, was a nightmare. With templates, the interface changes can be done in one place much faster.
We asked none of our staff to verify the HTML was XHTML compliant. When moving everything into templates I just ran the code through the w3c validator service.
Any long term user of UBBThreads/WWWThreads will definitely say that the user's wants have always been listened to. Every feature you currently see is because it was asked for by the customers or potential customers. This is why you will find me actively involved over at threadsdev.com.
Going through the current changelog might look like we are just adding stuff randomly but in order to make improvements properly some things need to be redone, recoded, etc. And you aren't seeing every little change.
Version 6.0 will be a big improvement over what you see currently. Will it have everything you and everyone else wants? Probably not but hopefully it will be a big step in the right direction. While this will be a major upgrade and there will be alot of stuff added/improved upon there will still need to be more changes.
------------------- Rick Baker UBBThreads developer
I bought wwwthreads when it was still wwwthreads and a key factor was it did not need PHP support. We have a great virtual server deal that no one else can match (good performance 500 MB of disk space, 100 GB transfer monthly, load averages consistently below 1 and just $130 a month - all this to avoid the suggestions to move when I get to the next part). We have been with them for 2 years and push our 100 GB on a regular basis. However they only have support for an older PHP build installed that at best is not optimum for running newer PHP software.
Now I learn that Infopop has in their infinate wisdom dropped support for the very feature that made me buy the software. I am hoping I don't have to convert yet again but I do have the option to head over to Gossamer Theads and switch since they do support Perl in their latest and greatest versions (which as some know was designed to replace their wwwthreads licenced product). Anyway, I have been more than happy with wwwthreads BUT our users want things like auto URL parsing and I want continued code optimization so I am not happy to sit on 5.4.x
I have sent a couple of emails on this same issue but I want to make sure it's out very clearly that as a result of Infopop buying out wwwthreads, perl users appear to get the short end of the stick. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
<What I did try to stress in my last post is these things take time.>
I didn't get that from your last post. What I want to mention is that there are certain things that are common to BOTH UBB & OT. Leaving them out is unacceptable. If it only takes you 10 minutes to do this kind of stuff, and I'm sure that's the case, then please would you spend ten minutes or more to give us some sizzle?
<Here I agree with you, that instant graemlins should be implemented.> from noox Wraith, has lightbulbs. threadsdev.com, to where I have been directed by Infopop's own Help staff, is using a hack to display icons for posters
The commitment you are talking about seems to be a commitment to your personal vision of the direction that UBBT should go.
<The template system was needed in order to improve the interface.>
I hope that in the effort being made to complete the templates you include the sizzle. Consider what the person who has sold individual banners is going through at this VERY moment trying to get them working? On the strength of UBB he has grown large enough to need UBBT. Now, no individual banners? Which I'm sure he has already sold for this month. How would you feel, facing that, this weekend? Further, how happy, or disoriented, will his current UBB users be at the interface they will face?
I realize it takes time, but, and this will be the kicker, again, isn't it possible that your time is being spent going in the wrong direction? How can threadsdev.com have A HACK to display icons? Did you look at cityeast's comment? He ran a limited focus group, and it was overwhelmingly decided in favor of the UBB interface. Are you asking people to wait until your team decides on the best way to handle the MySQL infrastructure? What is the person with the banners supposed to do?
I don't think you are asking that, but what I think you are saying is, later. Well, I am here, trying to tell you, that the time is NOW! You have to believe that whatever it is you are working on, unless it's oriented around the interface and customization, then you need to stop. And, you CAN! Just say, "Wow...our own threadsdev.com uses a hack to post icons? Cityeast's poll shows people want that kind of interface? Ladies & Gentlemen, let's fix this." Now is the time, not later. THAT is the kind of commitment I am asking for. If you go ahead in spite of these indicators, what kind of management should we call that? What would you do if you were the guy upgrading to UBBT and were told to go BACK about two years in time for interface, as a punishment for his growth? Why? Because right now the dev team WANTS to work on different things. How wuld you feel? You CAN fix it, but most importantly you have an absolute responsibility to address the design issue as an emergency, not as a later. Think about the guy who is upgrading right now? He's won his users. How quickly will he lose that person in Poughkipsie who LOVED the graemlins? Or have to refund that fifty bucks he got for selling a banner? How do you think he feels? What are you going to say to him? "Later."?
You can do it now. You only have to make the choice.
Ok I am following you but it's not really a one size fits all situation on the look of the bulletin board. You want instant graemlin, the icons to be displayed when making a post, lightbulbs, etc. Other's don't want it. So, we code it in directly so now some people are happy and some people aren't. But that's going to be the beauty of the template system.
When 6.0 is out we can then offer custom templates to do this type of stuff. No code editing needed. You want the instant graemlin/icon display when making a new post. Just upload a newpost.tmpl template that will have it. These will all just be HTML changes, so when you are watching the changelog you probably won't see too much regarding the interface.
This might all sound like a bunch of hogwash at this point but the goal of the next release is to provide a system where everyone can be happy. To this point, any interface changes that have been made or not made, everyone was stuck with unless they hacked the code. That's not the way it should be because everyone has different tastes and ideas of how their forums should look. Some of you want your forums to look more like UBB, but there are those that don't want this. So, that's what the template system is all about.
Individual headers for each forum, yes that will be put in.
So, I don't think I can say much more on this subject really. Hopefully when 6.0 is out it will speak for itself on if our time was spent on the right things.
------------------- Rick Baker UBBThreads developer
Hi I though I would chime in here a little ... for what its worth I am a Jumper from UBB 6.xx I still have one license of UBB, My BB was way too big for UBB and we had to do something else (some other software}. I have worked with these guys for several years and that is the reason I switched to Threads Trust... I have complained about some things but when I have trouble they come running and I like that...
You're absolutely right, there really is nothing more you can say on the subject. So I hope you don't - whatever the provocation - and just keep on beavering away at V6.0 instead!
The single biggest reason is you could have just grabbed the demo to check out the product before buying it.
On that basis alone... you have no ground to stand on. "Buyer Beware". If you are upset at having spent money on a product you don't like.. Too Bad, you could have tried it before you bought it.. now it's just your own fault.
On another note, Rick and the rest have done an outstanding job in my opinion, and the support community here is great. For you to flame them as you have is absurd. Is UBBT an Infopop product? Yes. Might one expect it to have the same look and feel as their other products? Maybe, considering it IS a different product. Now a SMART shopper would have done a little research on a product before dropping down some cash on something, and would have found out that Infopop has only been the owner of UBBT (formerly WWWThreads) for a few months.
In that few months, they have made huge progress on compared to what it was (or is for me, I still use w3t for now).
In summary, if you're upset... go flame yourself.. it's your fault mdmz.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="">quote:</font><hr /><font size="" face="">Originally posted by mdmz: I have really had it with UBBT. How is it that they have left out all of the sizzle: they don't even display the post icons, get a hack for that, the Graemlins, forget it, the self-lighting bulbs, the burning folders...?? In watching the UBB evolve, didn't they see these things as adaptations that were embraced? Why would so many people use them on their UBB, unless they found them an effective way of explaining the vast amounts of information a table of forums offers? Where is the PopIt feature? Where are the ratings? What do I GET for my extra $30 dollars, except to be shuttled back in time 5 years in terms of user interface? MySQL... well, I thought it was great, but not at this cost. Rick Baker: why have you left out SO MUCH of what makes UBB a great experience when you made UBBT??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="" face="">I can not believe what I'm reading here. WTF are "Graemlins"? I don't want "bulbs" or "buring folders" or other kiddie stuff on my board. This is UBBThreads, formerly known as WWWThreads, it has absolutly nothing to do with the UBB software. It is just now owned by the same company. If people are too stupid to check the demo or even to lazy to read the feature-list of the product they are buying... well, they don't deserve any different.
The day "my" beloved UBBThreads formerly known as WWWThreads will include such kidde stuff I will thinking of switching to another board. Though I will probably not switch because my thrust in Rick is infinte and I'll just hack to code so it fits my standards of a good interface. And IMHO UBBThreads has a far superior interface than UBB.
Sorry for getting personal... but this can't be true....
One of the deciding factors (one third of the total) on UBBt was its crisp, clean look. The oppressive number of graphics in the competition (as well as the "toy" look it gave them) made UBBt a clear choice. It really peeved me that their software altered text (like this!) as its default behavior. Sloppy stuff, changing "!)" to a smiley without asking permission. I thought only M$ made a habit of that sort of change.
I'd hate to see UBBt change to that sort of default.
Sounds like you should have chosen UBB, if you liked those features.
Rick - You've done an AWESOME job with Threads. You're a Genius. I'm glad it doesn't look like UBB or Open Topic. You'll never please all of the people all of the time, you can just do the best you can.
I don't have the (1 New) linebreak issue. I believe those column widths are defined by %, so it depends on your resolution and/or monitor size. In the stylesheets you can also control the font size.
I'm not a programmer, but I'm a very "tekkie" person. I've added great new features with a few simple hacks. Nothing has taken more than a few minutes to do. They weren't "needed" features (like clickable post icons etc..) but they are nicer. Usually the hack ends up in the next version, and I can't wait to test version 6!
Why doesn't threads have the same things as UBB or OpenTopic? Cause Rick didn't write those. They are different programs. Written by different people, with different features. There are differences in any product you buy. Look at automobiles...there are many subtle differences between a Camry, an Altima and a Malibu. Each one gets you from place to place...alot is a matter of preference. Each has many small "bells & whistles" that may interest you.
I personally find UBBThreads easier for the new user. You may not agree. Then perhaps UBB is for you. My board has about 700-800 new users a month, and we're pushing 50 GB a month. Never a problem. Many are newbies to computers or the internet. Many use simple devices like WebTV or Internet Appliances. I've been able to customize a few things to make it all just work perfectly.
THANK YOU RICK and the InfoPop gang for seeing that your product line needed something unique and different from UBB or Open Topic!
