There needs to be a way for graphic designers, and HTML coders to implement their own look and feel. My designers are currently suggesting that we compromise functionality, for looks. This means using something like the cold fusion forums. I personally like wwwthreads, and am desperately trying to figure out how to satisfy myself, and the designers. Any suggestions?
Yeah, well there is a way now but of course, it would require tons of work, basically re-writing the forum's HTML interface. Something I've thought about doing with the help of our coders... I'd create what it should look like in HTML, and try to work with them to get W3T to look like it. Not an easy job I'm sure but I've thought about it.
The ideal situation would be for W3T to have an admin (in terms of look and feel) section like Gossamer Threads Links SQL... talk about a dream to work with. Designer friendly, for sure! Basically you keep certain code in tact... and place it inside of an HTML page, then dump that text into a text box in the admin area...
Muhammad Chishti Creative dIRECTOR <font color=white><A HREF="http://www.imcuniverse.com" target="_new">http://www.imcuniverse.com</A></font color=white>
Well, wait that scream finish the PHP version. I currently use another php based forum with templates. It let you design 100 % of your forum so easily... you can just work in your html editor, and insert variables where you want them (of course, each variable has its own template <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )
It the best solution you could have. Give scream a little time, I'm sure hell make it
Aldar
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Aldariann on 10/24/00 03:09 PM.</EM></FONT>
Naturally this all comes back to the template thing. I've made several attempts to do the templates without creating a resource hog of a system but so far have come up empty handed. With the recent start of the PHP port I've come to realize that PHP might make this possible without creating any resource problems. No guarantees at this time because I'm still porting it over, but it will be something that I will be looking into for sure.
See, I told ya <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Let scream finish PHP.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Scream, I think there is a way to keep template in cache with php... might help.
Although we are all eager to see improvements in the look of the forums, you'd be committing suicide if you allow designers to have the upper hand in what goes into your site.
Pretty faces are all very well but a brain behind them makes all the difference - didn't your Daddy tell you that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
There's really not that much you CAN'T do. What exactly do you want it to look like? I've played around with some different things, for example here's a page I made when I was trying to go a little more for that "delphi" look (btw I never really finished it, but still gives you an idea):
<font color=blue>Although we are all eager to see improvements in the look of the forums, you'd be committing suicide if you allow designers to have the upper hand in what goes into your site.</font color=blue>
Well, let me at it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... it depends on what you mean by 'what goes into your site' ... designers aren't copywriters, but the design elements that they are responsible for can in fact make or break your site... whether we're talking about flashy stuff or just the way text is formatted and presented, designers have a taste for making things look good while keeping them functional. It's our job. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Muhammad Chishti Creative dIRECTOR <font color=white><A HREF="http://www.imcuniverse.com" target="_new">http://www.imcuniverse.com</A></font color=white>
I agree that it should look good - I just don't want that to be of such paramount importance that it just sits there looking good and doesn't *do* anything, like the little girl who's won't play because she's afraid she'll spoil her party dress.
Actually, we've done something similar (left-side menu bar, no frames though) at <A HREF="http://www.metallicasucks.com/" target="_new">http://www.metallicasucks.com/</A> (standard disclaimers as to potentially offensive content to be found at that link), but the design may give people some ideas. If you select a theme, it gets carried over to the left-side menu bar as well, etc. (but not to any non-w3t page, yet, since there's still no "stylesheet" cookie available to query to use on non-w3t pages)
I think that's only with Zend Cache. When all these Zend products finally come out they're gonna make w3t PHP kick 9000% more butt then w3t Perl. (Cause Perl SUCKS!)
Unfortunately, being a wine lifestyle site, we have to compete with tons of stuffy well funded entities. This makes for intense competition. Our designers were essentially hired to help us to look bigger than we really are. It's hard to tell Masters of Arts that we'll settle for out of the box templates. No offense, Scream. I love the product. I think I may have gotten them to install the wwwthreads, in hopes that we can change over to the PHP version later....
You don't need to lose functionality for looks unless your designers are idiots.
I've redeisgned this forum from ground up with out losing any functionality, gaining some speed, and even adding a LOT of my own functionality..
I am guessing that the layout might be a bit easier to change over the past few versions also, but I wouldn't know for sure because I haven't looked yet.
FYI: No I'm not calling your designers idiots.. I saw the site.. Looks nice..
------------------------------------------------ Jeremy 'PeelBoy' Amberg<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by PeelBoy on 10/25/00 11:37 AM.</EM></FONT>
Perl sucks? What the hell? Please don't use a blanket statment like that because it's idiotic..
You are full of your self if you think Perl was made specifically for CGI.
Perl is a far more powerfull language that PHP will ever be..
I love PHP just as much as the next person, but to say Perl sucks because PHP is a little (and I mean a little) better than Perl for writing web-based server side code? That's about stupid.
------------------------------------------------ Jeremy 'PeelBoy' Amberg
Perl sucks for web stuff compared to PHP. Cause PHP is faster and better geared for it. Plus I think Perl sucks in general cause it's not as fast as other languages. I never even said it was geared towards CGI only.
If you say me saying Perl sucks is idiotic I guess it's just as idiotic for when you said Microsoft sucks in a different thread. To each his own.
That's just Flash. That's not site design. There was like 4 lines of HTML and JavaScript in that. The rest was just Flash. W3T != Flash and doesn't run in Flash. It's obvious they're Flash workers and not site designers.
And I only went to check it out and criticize cause you got all nasty at the guy who had a very valid point.
However your site, www.vineswinger.com is pretty nice. Only one comment. Make the "About Us", etc links on the button mouse over with brighter text or something. It'll flow better with all the other mouse overs you have.
The site I posted was their experimental site. Yes it is flash. It is also "fine" design. Design has it's origins in print, not programming. Correct me if I am wrong.
They threw up www.vineSwinger.com in 2 weeks. FYI, It's hand coded HTML. Our full site has been in development for over a year. It is going to be an exciting launch for us. We have been trying to control every facet of the site. Each page has a color scheme, and the whole site has a particular look and feel. Regardless of how nice a template looks, it just wouldn't fit into what we are creating. The site peelboy had still looked like wwwthreads, with new icons and colors. Take a look at one of our competitors sites to see what level of integration I hope to eventually have. http://www.winetoday.com/msg/read.asp?discid=668&id=3365#3365
You can seamlessly go between an article, and the boards.
Sorry if I got a little bent out of shape. I apologize. I hadn't had my morning cup of coffee yet.
What happened to your Maxima forums? I really liked what you did with W3T... but now I seem to get thrown to another site that doesn't use W3T when I go to thepeel.com/maxima... do you still use W3T somewhere?
Muhammad Chishti Creative dIRECTOR <font color=white><A HREF="http://www.imcuniverse.com" target="_new">http://www.imcuniverse.com</A></font color=white>
I don't mean to be rude here, and I know how touchy things get about design.... but if that is what we are talking about here (design) then I can promise you that nobody here has any place to criticize Artistica.org... it fits in a class with sites done by some of the most creative individual designers on the planet... and saying that it isn't 'site design' is simply incorrect. Those designers have got firepower.
Muhammad Chishti Creative dIRECTOR <font color=white><A HREF="http://www.imcuniverse.com" target="_new">http://www.imcuniverse.com</A></font color=white>
For a nice clean sample of WWWThreds forum go to <A HREF="http://www.regedit.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/wwwthreads.pl" target="_new">http://www.regedit.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/wwwthreads.pl</A>
Simon Clausen has done a great job with his site as far as the lay out is. I wish he would add some the "hacks" though.
Hmmm... I don't think you know what you are talking about..
Compared to C? No it's not near as fast? Compared to other scripting lang's? Yes it's very fast and very powerfull..
Faster than PHP for web stuff? No.. Possible to make it faster? Yes.. (Anything is possible, I'm sure a re-worked mod_perl could take PHP's place easily)
PHP is made for web stuff.. That's why it's so fast.. Perl on the other hand is made to be good at just about anything.. It's not the best at anything (except text processing, which is VERY handy)...
Dude take a look at PHP.. It's basically the same lang as perl, but for web use.. Why? Because perl is -that- cool.. You can claim it looks a lot like C, but it's a lot closer to Perl than anything.. Why do you think Scream picked it up so easily?
Perl is made for writing quick script/tools that are very powerfull -- when there is no need for an overly complex compiled lang like C to do the task at hand.. I don't think any language really does a better / quicker job of this than Perl. -- This is funny when you think about it.. Because you can write freakin HUGE apps in Perl that should probably be written in C, but Perl still handles them fine and PHP wouldn't handle them at all.. hmmmm?
Just because you don't have a use for Perl, or havent taken the time to learn it.. Does not mean it sucks.. That's like saying C sucks..
------------------------------------------------ Jeremy 'PeelBoy' Amberg
Darn you removed the reply before I got to read it..
I hope you didn't get offended.. I wasn't trying to be offensive..
I was just letting you know that it -is- possible to do just about anything you want to with this forum, with out losing functionality if you know what you are doing...
------------------------------------------------ Jeremy 'PeelBoy' Amberg
Your site is absolutely beautiful - no wonder you are keen to bring your discussion boards in line. It CAN be done but it'll need a lot of individual attention. Bon appetit!
I'm not gonna perpetuate an arguement. But I do know Perl and have used it in the past but I have found a combination of other languages to take it's place for my work.
I don't think Perl is the perfect tool for every job.. If I did I wouldn't be drooling over a PHP version of this forum..
I use to be a sys admin, and with out the help of Perl my job would have been a living nightmare.. Yes I had other languages to choose from, but why use 4 langs for the job when Perl alone will do the job of all of them as good or better? -- Any functionality that doesn't exist in the base install of perl can always be added in as a module (and if you look, you will see that a module exists for almost every thing you can thinkg of)
------------------------------------------------ Jeremy 'PeelBoy' Amberg
I have said something might be idiotic.. But I don't believe I have called any one specific person an idiot? Most of the stuff I have argued about on this forum is just personal opinions.. How can somebody be an idiot just because their opinion is different than mine?
I didn't call your designers idiots... Look at the post again.. I think I was being pretty general on what I said.. I wasn't trying to point anybody out.. I just think it's kind of weird if a designer thinks that making something look good means you have to lose functionality.. They are a designer.. It's their job to figure out how to keep/add functionality while keeping the design nice, clean, easy, user friendly etc..
I have seen your site... I think it's great! In no way do I think you or your designers are idiots..
------------------------------------------------ Jeremy 'PeelBoy' Amberg
I didn't take it offensively and I don't believe he called me an idiot. And if he did, he's entitled to his own opinions and that doesn't bother me. But I am friendly with him and we do even talk in PMs so we don't take personal opinions of something to harshly.
